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via emaila conflicted memorial day
May 27th, 2009it was kind of sad this year to pray up at the MUB. what really hit me is that we’ve been involved as a church for almost 20 years in the Memorial Day events. each year it seems like the group of vets gets smaller and smaller. there used to be 20-30 of them in the parade, now just a handful remain. it is obvious that those who served in WW2 and Korea have been heavily invested in this remembrance. those who fought in more recent wars just aren’t there in any numbers. why?? maybe it has to do with the ”popularity” of a war, maybe it is just part of a cultural shift in which a new generation doesn’t do the traditional things their parents did.
what really has me conflicted though isn’t the sadness that a great generation is dying out. no, what conflicts me is trying to answer the question, “would i fight for my country?” once upon a time i would have said “YES” without hesitation if the conflict was just. now i see a country that more and more is distancing itself from God, and i wonder– should i fight for a land becoming more blasphemous every day. here i am preparing a message for this sunday on what it means to live as an “alien” or “sojourner” in the land. lately i’ve sure been feeling more than ever before that this world isn’t my home.
so i still honor the men and women who fought the good fight and secured freedom for this country. i still believe that the state has the right and responsibility to stop oppression. and i still cherish the freedom i have as a pastor to preach without any outside interference. but i wonder what tomorrow will bring. and i keep thinking that we as a church are starting to better understand what those first christians knew– that this their citizenship is somewhere else (phil. 3:20).
so tell me– would you still fight for freedom?
Muffy Tarcold said:
I’ve had weekly conversations with my 85 year old mother who lived through WW2. As she observes each stone of our national foundation crumble, she grieves again and wants to DO SOMETHING to stop the decline. I didn’t really know how to comfort her until I started encouraging her to focus her attention on her eternal home and her citizenship in the kingdom. It has helped a little although if she listens to Rush and Glen Beck she gets all riled up again. I think it is harder for her generation to let go of the idea that the USA is no longer the hope of the nations. It’s hard for me - I remember the innocence of the 50’s - but I think it must be much harder for her generation.
I feel sad for the noble young men who went to Iraq and Afghanistan holding on to the banner of freedom that has been our battle cry for generations. They will return to a radically different country - a country of people embracing bondage to their redefinition of freedom - a freedom devoid of nobility and integrity and morality. When Europe was besieged by Hitler and Moussolini and Stalin, the US was the light of hope even to those who never made it to our shores. Where will the oppressed and downtrodden and impoverished put their hope now?
So could I encourage my sons, daughters or grandchildren to join the fight for this country? I don’t think so. I can’t bring myself to put out the flag. I don’t think I can “pledge allegiance” anymore. Everyday, I draw closer to the reality that this is not my home - I am not of this world. How grateful I am for THAT REALITY AND HOPE. So, maybe as this country’s light is snuffed out, people of all nations will look to the true, unfailing, eternal hope and freedom that is found only in Jesus.
Mark Juel said:
I suppose that would depend on knowing if I was “called” or not. I have always marvelled how many people in the Bible heard from God and then just went off to war. Would I fight for my country? Yes. I have not always believed that I would but today I would. I watched a Christian Vietnam Veteran talk about how he would go through Vietnam again despite the fact that a snyper shot a grenade in his hand and brutally burned and mutilated his body. He said that because of that experience he was able to pray with dying soldiers. That now sounds like ROmans 9:3 “For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh.” Such witnesses are not given much of a voice but that is my goal.
KenL said:
You asked two different questions, of course …
Mid-article you asked about whether you’d fight for the country, and at the bottom you asked about fighting for freedom. Those might not be the same thing.
The cliche expression “for God and country” needs to be unpacked a bit. Do the two have the same interests?
For my own part, to answer the question, I am not prepared to trust our political leaders to send me to war. That’s a big part of why I never joined the military, although I thought about it when I was in college. Considering the number of things that the US stands for right now that I don’t — and I could write a long list to upset the Right or the Left — I’m not sure I’d do very well.
Jeremy said:
Yes, and I probably will. I’m proud to say that I joined the Army National Guard in January of this year. I find it to be an honor to serve our country and pray that God will work through me and everyone else who serves. I believe it is up to us as Christians to not idly sit by and complain about how our country is growing further from God. I believe we are called to get involved and help our country grow closer to God. We need to grab hold of the momentum that was talked about at UNH and watch God’s work unfold. If it is God’s will that our country collapse then so be it, but until He makes that clear to me I will continue to have hope and do my best to carry out His work and live a Christ-like life.
B-Bone said:
I think that when we go to war for our country we are doing so not only for our country but for family and friends as well. Even if I didn’t agree with everything going on in the country or with the policies of the administration that was in control at the time, this country is still the best in the world and we have considerable frredoms. In fighting in a war, I would be fighting to protect my wife, my children, and future generations from the oppressive forces that want to destroy our way of life and kill and rape our people. Those who have fought and are currently fighting in Iraq and Afghanistan should be given credit for the fact that we have not had another terrorist attack since the 9-11. Thank You!!
Perhaps the bigger question is what can we do to get the country back on track to embrace the Godly values upon which it was founded. Where have we gone off track and why? Why haven’t our current approaches worked? Why is society perhaps more tolerant of Islamists that Evangelical Christians? Essentially we need to “sell” our faith and our way of practicing it to a techno, me-focused generation of peoples. How do we best do that without driving them away? Perhaps our current strategy isn’t working. There are so many groups that get lumped under the “Crhistian” banner by society that fringe, radical groups givve the whole “Christian” label a bad name. Who is in charge of our PR?
God Bless America and thanks to all the men and women who have died for it!
terrysharbaugh said:
Superb comments everyone. This is obviously a difficult issue to unravel.
Let me throw another “twist” into this discussion. It seems our first allegiance is always to the kingdom of God, not to any state or other entity. So when two Christians both pick up arms to go to war, but for two opposing countries, what does God think of that? Two brothers in Christ on the battlefield trying to kill each other in the name of the state? Think about our own “civil” war– brother against brother. A great conversation up in heaven– “hey, weren’t you the guy at Gettsburg who ran me through with the bayonet?” Makes you go hmmmmmmm….???
ts
KenL said:
I think that God would have to look at this kind of thing and say that mankind doesn’t get it. More and more, as I look through Scripture and what it teaches, I think that I need to demote national loyalty as just about the last interest I have. That has nothing to do with who’s in power and what policies are being instituted, but simply because the government is entirely of this world. That’s not where my heart is supposed to be.
A Christian in Palestine should be dearer to my heart than my unbelieving neighbor, if I take seriously Jesus’ command to forsake the world for His Name.
To B-Bone’s question “Where have we gone off track and why?”
I’d say Eden. We’ve been off-track the whole time.
The US wasn’t exactly a Christian utopia at its founding and our history has been filled with evil, much of it done in God’s Name. Slavery, manifest destiny, our treatment of Natives … But that might be a tad off-topic.
KenL said:
Alright … Now I’m double-posting …
A great conversation up in heaven– “hey, weren’t you the guy at Gettsburg who ran me through with the bayonet?”
I sort of hope that we’re filled with so much grace that we pour it out in such situations.
Johnny Reb: Hey, weren’t you the guy who ran me through with the bayonet at Gettysburg?
Billy Yank: I thought you looked familiar!
JR: Wow, man, you had quite the arm! You had some real power in that thrust!
BY: Well, you know, you almost dodged me pretty well!
JR: Bah! You’re just being nice. You were so fast out there, I didn’t stand a chance!
… But maybe that’s just too weird to discuss.
Marshall K. said:
I am not generally one who opts to engage in these types of discussions with Christians with whom I’m unfamiliar or personally acquainted, but I feel compelled in this case to cast my thoughts and opinions into the fray.
In answering the question of whether one would fight for one’s country, we must not allow ourselves to unquestioningly assume that the “fight” in question is limited to being defined by war, aggression, and physical conflict which leads to death. While the question is posed here specifically in reference to fighting in the militaristic sense, there are fights which occur everyday which must also be considered when trying to come to an answer.
I’ll start by saying rather simply that I would not fight militarily for this country. I just don’t believe that strongly in what is, essentially, a big piece of land that is claimed and defined by rather arbitrary and physically non-existent borders. I am highly unwilling to stake my life in defense of a country that I could ultimately either take or leave. I think it’s quite dangerous to offer one’s life in defense of what is, when all is said and done, something that will crumble and fade as history marches onward. It’s all a bit temporal, don’t you think? Fighting for something that will inevitably crumble? It’s like investing all of your time and effort into keeping your car from rusting, but living at the bottom of the ocean.
I’d be more inclined to say that I might fight in defense of my country if there wasn’t such an ugly past associated with nationalism, and especially so in the cases where nationalism has led one country to wage war with another. I think it’s dangerous to assume or believe that this country is the “best” country in the world simply because we have in our museums some pieces of paper which have some words upon them which say (in more words than this) that “we’re awesome.”
I’m reminded of the lyrics to a song by a Canadian punk band called Propagandhi. They say that “It takes a village to raise a child, but just a flag to raze the children till they’re nothing more than ballasts for fulfilling a madman’s dream of a paradise.” I’ll let you decide for yourself how this fits into the idea of fighting for one’s country.
What is really the “best” about America is actually what is “best” about humanity and our collective political spirit. Democracy and freedom are what make America great, but we’re not the only country in the world who guarantee both, nor are we the one country in the world who has perfected either. Our liberties make us great, but liberty isn’t exclusively American. It’s not like the people who become naturalized citizens of our country are, on the day of their naturalization ceremony, handed a vial containing a powerful cocktail of liberty and freedom and democracy. I think that we tend to want to think that we’re the best country in the world because it makes it easier for us to avoid having to do something about the fact that we’re actually blowing it big time. When we say, “well, America is the greatest country in the world because everyone gets a fair shot!,” it makes us easier for us to look at the poor, uneducated, sick, and broken amongst us and say that they wasted their fair shot while we were smart and capable enough to capitalize on ours. I guess when you look at it that way, you could also call into question the motives of those who choose to go and fight. For whom are they really fighting?
Does anyone actually think that God looks down on America and says “wow, they have it totally right and I’m going to stand behind them while they go and murder a few actual enemies and a bunch more innocent civilians!” Would Jesus enlist in the armed forces? It’s a fairly cliche question to ask, but I’d like to hear a rational and sane answer that falls on the “yes” side of things. Bottom line, as far as I see it, is that God doesn’t really care about borders. He doesn’t care about our politics. He doesn’t care international relations. What is big to us, after all, is probably generally rather small and unimportant to Him.
While I don’t think it’s wise to pick up a gun in defense of your country, I do think that we’re called to fight for certain things in this life. The aforementioned principles of freedom, democracy, and liberty are certainly things that I think clearly fall within God’s moral character. Accordingly, I am comfortable saying that I would (I will and do) fight for these things. When I say fight in this context, though, it defined less militaristically and more personally. I hold these principles to be vital and I try to employ them in my daily life as much as possible. In this sense, then, I suppose I do fight for my country (though only in the sense that I am fighting for what my country says it stands for). I think we all fight to make sure that the people we care about are being treated with dignity and respect, and are able to do the same for others. I think it’s important to recognize, though, that dignity and respect should not be offered based on any conditional sense such as one’s citizenship or religion, nor are they ours to actually bestow upon anyone. Dignity and respect exist as a product of God’s moral character, and, as such, can only be recognized and and then acted upon by those of us who choose to let God show Himself to us. They can not be fought for or won with violence, and trying to win them by such means would be utterly foolish.
With that being said, I reiterate that these are my opinions alone and that they do not taint my view or opinion of others (including those who have come to the conclusion that it was or is right for them to fight for their country). I respect the fact that our veterans have decided to heed the call of their country when they saw fit and I am grateful that there have been people who have been willing to die for me our human freedoms. I don’t claim to be right about any of this. I claim my thoughts for what they are and I appreciate the fact that there are others who would disagree. Some of this may be inflammatory, but such emotional arson is not my intent.
I’m just trying to figure this life out like anyone else.
Tom said:
I heard somebody discussing this very topic a few years ago, and it was a startling revelation to me. Of the two people I heard discussing it, one was an agnostic/atheist and the other was a Christian. The Christian stated that he put God above country, and predictably, the a/a accused him of being unpatriotic. It was the first time I had ever heard someone separate the two, as I had always just thought “God and country,” placing them on an even ground. This is clearly not the case, and it is a subject that rolls around in my head every now and then. And a few months ago, Pastor Terry said something in his message that further muddled the topic in my head, when he said asked us that if we were dropping a bomb on an enemy country and we KNEW it would kill a fellow Christian, would we do it?
I’m a history teacher/editor, and I know the history of this country. I always thought of myself as patriotic. But I think, now especially, I love the idea of this country more than the country itself. We all know the horrible things that came along with the foundation of this nation, but there was a lot of good as well. And to me, those Godly conceptions of this country are worth upholding. I think “would you fight for this country” is a loaded question, because it seems the country is changing rapidly. The different between fighting for God and fighting for country, it seems, is that we ALWAYS know that fighting for our Lord is right.
Not sure if this is germane to the discussion or if it even helps anyone, it’s just a way for me to get out some of the thoughts that have been churning in my head with regards to this subject. And as other here have noted, this has no reflection on my opinion of veterans. My father is Vietnam veteran of the U.S. Marine Corps, and the Jeremy in this thread who is joining the National Guard is my best friend. There’s no end to my respect to veterans. But it seems that as our country shifts its definition so fast, we should certainly think a lot harder about whom we pick up a sword (or rifle) against. Thanks for putting up with my rambling.
Muffy Tarcold said:
I have been chewing on this question some more and looking at it from another point of view. While I acknowledge that my loyalty to Christ is slowly and steadily eclipsing my loyalty to my country, there is another facet to this. If I think about an entire country of mothers who now send their daughters to school instead of hiding them in terror from Usay and Qusay - I am thankful that we can still be a hope, that we still have heroes who are willing to face death for those who are suffering such atrocities - even if I do find the direction my country is taking repulsive.
Vien Diesal said:
“Would you fight for your country?” My answer is yes, I intend to as a pilot in the Air Force. The further question “If two Christians picked up arms for opposing countries in a war, what does God think of that?” I agree with KenL. He understands we make mistakes, and he forgives us for it, but to tell you the truth, if another man who was a christian was trying to kill me, I dont know if i could restrain myself from making sure he didnt kill me. ever, and permanently.
I asked this question to my closer friends, and it seemed the reasons that separated them on the issue were ideals, morals, and finally, political party. I was intriqued by this, and attempted to pursue it further with them, but they told me to drop it and I took the hint.
I still say the pledge, i still put my flag out, but do i do with 100% pride in my heart? the answer is no, and i dont think it will be until someone gets elected who changes the way this once proud country works.
thank you for your time.